Author Topic: Shoe (Read 8639 times)

Elaine · « **on:** August 15, 2007, 04:03:21 PM »

Browsing through the pottery marks website I was reminded of this little shoe. (Yes, it's another of the bits inherited from my great-aunt!

) The mark on the sole looks like Sevres to me, but I'm just not sure $:-\$

What do the experts here think?

(And yes, that's a lock of hair in it. I have no idea whose!

Might have been my great-aunt's friend, with whom she lived. Aw! Sweet!

)

Tigerchips · « **Reply #1 on:** August 15, 2007, 07:32:16 PM »

It could be a snuff box or bonbonniere?

Tigerchips · « **Reply #2 on:** August 15, 2007, 07:37:51 PM »

I was reminded of Bilston enamels only this seems to be porcelain.

Tigerchips · « **Reply #3 on:** August 15, 2007, 07:47:20 PM »

It looks French, especially with the Sevres type mark. That kind of mark was used by other French firms too.

Lustrousstone · « **Reply #4 on:** August 15, 2007, 08:00:19 PM »

Try Vincennes 1740-1752

Elaine · « **Reply #5 on:** August 15, 2007, 08:05:45 PM »

I did see that, Christine. But the mark is so like the Sevres mark no. 1 shown here http://www.oldandsold.com/pottery/france1.shtml That I'm now totally confused! Yes, I know the Sevres mark was faked or copied, but how can those of us who are so much less than expert tell a genuine piece?

Tigerchips · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2007, 08:23:36 PM »

Usually people can tell a genuine piece by asking yourself: Is it Soft-paste or Hard-paste porcelain?

It says here (Millers pot & porc marks), hard paste porcelain was made from 1768 onwards.

Since the mark on the shoe dates before 1753, it should be made from Soft-paste porcelain. It does say however that there are also soft-paste copies but not as many as hard paste copies.

I have no idea how to tell the difference between Soft-paste and hard-paste porcelain.

Elaine · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2007, 08:26:08 PM »

Quote from: Tigerchips on August 15, 2007, 08:23:36 PM

I have no idea how to tell the difference between Soft-paste and hard-paste porcelain.

Me neither!

Lustrousstone · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2007, 08:27:27 PM »

It does say early Sevres or Vincennes and it seems that Vicennes became Sevres see here

TC soft paste is chalkier I think

Elaine · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2007, 08:33:41 PM »

But how would I tell without damaging the item?

If I scratched it to see if it was hard or soft .... it's identified, but damaged! $:-\$

Lustrousstone · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2007, 08:53:20 PM »

You probably can't, there aren't any bare bits.

See here

josordoni · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2007, 10:57:37 PM »

Quote from: Tigerchips on August 15, 2007, 08:23:36 PM

Usually people can tell a genuine piece by asking yourself: Is it Soft-paste or Hard-paste porcelain?

It says here (Millers pot & porc marks), hard paste porcelain was made from 1768 onwards.

Since the mark on the shoe dates before 1753, it should be made from Soft-paste porcelain. It does say however that there are also soft-paste copies but not as many as hard paste copies.

I have no idea how to tell the difference between Soft-paste and hard-paste porcelain.

Hard paste porcelain has a very glassy quality to it, and the glaze is bonded very tightly to the body. So if you have a chip, it will almost look like opaque glass, and you won't be able to see the glaze sitting on the outside of the porcelain. It is quite cold to the touch as well. Most continental porcelain is hard paste.

Soft paste porcelain is much warmer to the touch, and any chip will look as you would expect porcelain to look, the glaze sits on the surface, and doesn't bond to the body in the same way as hard paste, so you will see this glassy surface over the porcelain on a chip. It may be a creamier colour. Much English porcelain will be soft paste.

It is one of those things that is much easier to tell when you have two pieces sitting alongside each other.

Elaine · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2007, 11:19:32 PM »

I went to have a closer look at the shoe, and noticed this tiny chip or flake at the edge of the 'sole'. I can't quite tell if it's a chip right through to the porcelain, but it looks like it might be, so I though a magnified image of it might help our experts to tell if it's hard or soft paste.

Anyone?

josordoni · « **Reply #13 on:** August 15, 2007, 11:59:31 PM »

No, I couldn't tell from this... I would probably need to be having a go at it with a loupe...

You know what its like...

Anne · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2007, 01:08:34 AM »

Not my field at all this, but my little Miller's fact file gives a very similar mark as Sevres 1745-1753. No guarantee it's an exact match though. $:-\$

Lustrousstone · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2007, 12:34:19 PM »

But Sevres wasn't Sevres until 1756, it was Vincennes until then, when it got moved lock, stock and barrel. See the link in my 8.27 pm post yesterday.

Elaine · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2007, 01:14:13 PM »

Your quite right, Christine! I just didn't image this shoe could be that old $:-\$

Is there any other way of telling? Like, from the painting style? Or the yellow glaze?

And does anyone know exactly who copied the Sevres / Vincennes marks, and when?

Elaine · « **Reply #17 on:** August 17, 2007, 12:13:47 PM »

Well, I had a look at the chip with my loupe, but I'm not expert enough to say which it is with any real conviction $:-\$

However, the body of the porcelain looks very glassy and almost crystalline, not really very 'chalky', so does that mean it's hard paste? And if so, does that mean it's Continental, not English?

Sue C · « **Reply #18 on:** August 17, 2007, 01:45:37 PM »

There was a man called Samson, edme et cie who made direct copies of the major porcelain factories, i have a pot some where ill'e dig it out.

josordoni · « **Reply #19 on:** August 17, 2007, 07:45:29 PM »

Quote from: Elaine on August 17, 2007, 12:13:47 PM

Well, I had a look at the chip with my loupe, but I'm not expert enough to say which it is with any real conviction $:-\$

However, the body of the porcelain looks very glassy and almost crystalline, not really very 'chalky', so does that mean it's hard paste? And if so, does that mean it's Continental, not English?

I would say yes, although with the caveat that I haven't seen it, but glassy and crystalline would certainly suggest continental, German or French most likely.